Promoting payed cheats.

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CaesarCzech
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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by CaesarCzech » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:49 pm

imho cheat engine and this forum were different situations. Cheat engine could take it this forum cant. What if this will lead to bigger profliteration of paid cheats ? how many more nails can we take guys ? Imho we cant encourage paid stuff created with cheat engine because of hit we suffered. I say until forum gets bit more stable dont allow paid stuff on this forum.
corroder wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:02 am
My though, it's simple.
Paying vs Donating.
Paying = Compensate for something with a that has been determined price
Donating = Provide compensation to something as a reward or a thank with voluntarily
Let choose a wise way
You know this could be nice compromise allow linking to sites allowing you to donate to author while forbiding paid content

BTW Sinstar Darkbyte got hit by Legal even without paid tables, What do you think would be result if we go full paid cheats ? You create paid table for game with any online content and you are risking whole site.
Last edited by CaesarCzech on Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by CaesarCzech » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:22 pm

STN wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:01 pm
This is not correct
Alsigard wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:12 pm
First MAF is actually free website you can donate if you want but it’s optional, there is no “Pay wall aka premium cheats”. Just register and download all you want.
In my opinion if somebody wants to sell cheats and the guy in question is closer to Caliber then to Omoe (Antifun) for charging money to use them. Should make their own website and provide his cheats to his donators/patrons/kick starters etc.
I loathe the guy, my hatred isn't a secret and for a good reason - http://fileforums.com/showthread.php?p=423350 | http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?t=568175 +more that aren't relevant to this discussion. So i don't like when he is being hailed as some hero for people to follow. The free is an illusion, you have to pay if you wish to use the chat feature, some of his site sections are locked to paid members, he ignores requests and updates if you aren't a paid member. Sure, he hasn't put a price on his cheats yet but everything else is a ploy to squeeze money out of his visitors.

You claim "now we face a very subtle threat from within which in time will either kill this community or transform it into something you won’t recognize." that's a big claim that has no basis and is unfair. But i ask, if i took your advice and followed MAF's formula...introduced some features exclusive to donators (aka paid members) and ignored non paying members, you would be very pissed, no ?. Yet he is a hero when he's doing the very thing you made this thread against while FRF has not and will never have such crap. So why make such claims that are damaging to this community and dissuade people that don't know this place better.

Paid cheats are the decision of the cheat makers themselves and has nothing to do with FRF. Please don't claim it as such or that there is a hidden agenda being pursued by us, it's preposterous. I wish to follow Dark Byte's path in this matter and what he would've done if such situation arose at CEF if tables were still being posted, after all this community is based on a tool he created.
Can we really afford to afford paid cheats when we have shrinked so much ?
BTW So you are against Pseudo Free MAF Cheats but For Fully Paid Cheats ? Only thing free user might get on MAF is the FULL trainer iteslf after the premium members request it. But that is still more than you get from these paid tables you are suggesting to accept

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by STN » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:21 pm

I am not against whatever type of cheats but against deception and lies and not having the decency to apologize after admitting to stealing and thievery, if he was releasing paid trainers i would still hate him, if he was the next Dark Byte, i would still hate him because of this
MAF wrote: #4 I already removed your crappy ass code from my trainer and replaced it with my own , I thought it was ok to take the base address from other people tables to make my own hacks faster but i was wrong i did admit it and i learned my listen , Move on already .
P.S please dont call a simple mov instruction a hard work it would take average 10 minutes to do the cheats you call hard work.
^To me, that response suggests a shitty character and the type of people i absolutely hate in life. He didn't learn his lesson, i can show you countless work of others that he ripped and continues ripping without apology and that's the worst part of it for me, no apology. Cheats have nothing to do with it.

--------------------------

I am not suggesting anything, please don't misconstrue my post as supporting one or the other. I honestly hoped the community and the other admins would reach a consensus but everyone was looking at me to make the final decision and so like i have said, i will follow Dark Byte's advice, if he had said no paid tables then i would not have allowed them but he suggested a few rules similar to what was on CEF and that is what it is going to be. Everyone agreed with it on CEF. Did that change anything there ?

The only thing i will suggest is re-create the old cheat tables and post new "FREE" ones. OP has made it a doomsday situation and a conspiracy by the admin team. It's fun, all this gossip but has no basis in reality.

I wish this issue hadn't come up at all this early in "cheat tables restoration" like you said but now that it has, we have to deal with it.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Alsigard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:35 pm

SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:23 am
Well then, by that logic, you have nothing to argue with because, as others said, Dark Byte didn't say cheats can't be sold and actively allowed paid content to be posted on his forum.
He said you could sell trainers not tables, is there no difference between them?
ColonelRVH wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:39 am
CE License Agreement wrote:13) You may not rent, lease or sell this program.
You are justifying something that isn't there.
Alsigard wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:40 am
CT. file format was made by Darkbyte and is inseparable from CE itself therefore it is a part of his program. More so only one program in the world uses CT. format and states that’s its free. CE license agreement clearly says “You may not rent, lease or sell this program”.
You either did not read what was posted earlier or selectively remove that argument from your head.

I don’t get it what people so angry about here? If you donate from 100$ 20$ or 25$ to Darkbyte is that so bad?

In the end of the day, I am just a regular person and believe it or not gain nothing from money or support I wish people would send to Darkbyte for his amazing work.
Moreover, if people want to make this site into money maker I obviously cannot stop them. In the end, I agree with CaesarCzech that every storm starts with a first thunder strike.

And obviously, me and Darkbyte a part of Illuminati plotting and conspiring in the shadows. :lol:

I hope STN will make a wise choice and this community will prosper.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SunBeam » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:09 pm

@Alsigard, here's a thought: instead of debating whether or not promotion of such cheats/trainers/tables is fair, why don't you just waste two days/nights reversing a game of your choice, creating some neat options and posting it for free? See how it feels. Man, oh man, do we love polemics.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Zircon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:48 pm

imho it's alright to post links for donations so the poeple who CAN and want to help the guys who provide us with such great cheat tables can do so ,

but if the table/trainer maker wants to force people to buy/sell their work ;

then it should be on their own website(no promoting of their website on the forum) and not here i mean it's like making profit with the work of the guys who made Cheat Engine and brought this forum back up and made the good reputation of ce community(and the people who taught/helped the tables/trainer seller ) without them getting anything from it and without the table/trainer seller to have to do any effort to get money(making a website,forum,getting good reputation for his website,his cheats etc) and that's just unfair.

that's only my opinion about this ofc.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:25 pm

STN wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:21 pm
...
I honestly hoped the community and the other admins would reach a consensus but everyone was looking at me to make the final decision and so like i have said...
You can just listen to me since I'm always right. :P
Alsigard wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:35 pm
He said you could sell trainers not tables, is there no difference between them?
Not really, trainers are largely encoded tables so it's alot harder for someone else to create a duplicate of the cheats. Making it much easier to extort money for them.
CaesarCzech wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:49 pm
BTW Sinstar Darkbyte got hit by Legal even without paid tables, What do you think would be result if we go full paid cheats ? You create paid table for game with any online content and you are risking whole site.
I'd thought that was the point of this forum, that the admins here are more willing to fight against CNDs than Dark Byte was. If they are going to give in when the first threat comes there's no point in hosting tables here either. As you say Dark Byte was targeted without paid tables, so paid or not obviously doesn't matter.

And I'd argue against full paid cheats as well, the suggested rules on Paid Content from CEF are fine to me. And seems to be the consensus between the admins.
++METHOS wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:57 pm
-We have to take certain measures to regulate what content gets published, as per the site owner, to remove any potentially infringing content and to keep things topically relevant etc..
Here's a suggestion of posting rules I think are fair compromise between maintaining forum integrity and minimizing content control.
Violations of these rules will receive a warning subsequent violations will receive a ban, extreme cases of violation forego a warning.
Rule 1. Racist comments/pictures/messages are not allowed.
Rule 2. Sexual comments/pictures/messages are not allowed.
Rule 3. Spam comments/pictures/messages are not allowed.
Rule 4. Discussions involving wares/cracks/online cheats/crimes are not allowed.
Rule 5. We have numerous forums, post according and keep posts on topic. This is to be less enforced in General Discussions.
Rule 6. This is an open group, with people as young as 13, so censor yourself accordingly.
Rule 7. Sometimes an idiot needs to be called an idiot, but keep from whole posts of insults or your discussions devolving in a flame war. Keep it civil.
Rule 8. Staff are open in dealing with violations in their assigned AOO as they see fit.
Rule 9. Arguing with staff isn't effective, if you feel you are unfairly treated post a respectful explanation in General Discussions.
Whatever you end up going with, please don't do wide net "we do what we want" rules where you can basically censor whatever you like under it.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Darkedone02 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:03 pm

Paying for cheats is not really a new thing to be honest, remember gameshark and codebreaker back in the PS1 and PS2 days? Game genie for the n64? there was small cheat programs that was around, and many developers out there trying to make their game become uncheatable, even the basic single player games way back then, but people will always find a way to get pass those barriers.

I used to love codebreaker back in the day, because for one good price, you have access to have the ability to download cheats straight from their websites and into your codebreaker CD, that was a BIG thing back then during the PS2 era of cheating. It was actually for a good price to buy it with a one good damn price to have access to TONS of fucking cheats. i still remember their website, cmgsccc.com... now these days they are called codetwink, and show the somewhat resurrected game genie, and still the old classic cheats i used to use.

Now here in these modern times, We have tons of websites and developers of trainers and tables that are offered for free and people that never really ask much for anything in return, some people do it for habits and for fun. This however did not stop people from trying to monetize their services such as cheathappens, WEMOD (slightly), MAF (slightly), and others out there that want to profit for making cheats... sadly none of them actually make a good decent one time deal, since both WEMOD and Cheathappens actually use a subscription program to make you pay a certain amount to have access to certain thing... imo, it's not really much of a good deal to begin with and not worth my time or money.

If people come to me and ask me to get into their paid services, I want something that actually speaks to me, a big bang for my buck. If you want my 15 dollars or 20 dollars, I wanted the following things:

-Day one cheats available as soon as possible, bringing out the basic cheats before the more advance version comes out.
-Developers of cheats that actually thoroughly tested their cheats to avoid having issues.
-Contently update their cheats on the current versions of the game in question when new updates come out.
-A massive library that contents tons of cheats available for me (at the scale of what recifense, shinkensen, cielos, Sunbeam, and many others combined to make the best available cheat options for us to use for EVERY game similar to how codebreaker community did with PS2 cheats).
-A massive hub of cheats available to download and up to date, organized, for that particular game we are looking for (better search functionality by many sort methods of choice).
-Backups available on many servers just in case one massive library end up going down, available mirrors should be available to download as an alternative source of download.

Luckly most of the stuff that I wanted is already available here on this forum and cheat engine in general.... BUT it's not really that organized, it's not much of a massive team itself, just a friendly community that does post cheats at their own time, not on a set schedule. Their is a massive hub, but it's disorganized and it's unknown if half of the shit in their actually works for the current version of the games in question, their is not much of a massive backup system so if this forum goes down from an attack or a copyright infringement, I can't find another place similar to cheat engine to download my cheats... so this site lacks backups.

Also it's quite sad that I can't just pop up cheat engine, download a table straight to my cheats folder from using cheat engine itself and not the forums, have a giant compilation of available working cheats for that current version of everyone's contributions of my selected game in question, and show alternative cheats in case one of the cheats like god mode for example failed to work, at least there 3-5 people own complied cheats available for me to use like cielos undead cheat for example.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:36 am

Alsigard wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:15 pm
CE license says it’s a free program, so first of all he should contact Darkbyte for commercial use approval, because he actually makes money from his program
This is the real ethical issue. It's very unfair to people who put in actual effort to get CE where it is today.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by seronis » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:50 am

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:36 am
Alsigard wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:15 pm
CE license says it’s a free program, so first of all he should contact Darkbyte for commercial use approval, because he actually makes money from his program
This is the real ethical issue. It's very unfair to people who put in actual effort to get CE where it is today.
No its not. Actually that is an outright idiotic standpoint for a very simple reason that was already stated above. If a book author uses notepad++ to write and edit their stories they would be considered insane if they thought they needed to give royalties to notepad++ coders, or to M$ for the fact that its the OS they were using, or to whatever company built the computer they used, or to their power company for providing the electricity while they wrote. Get the point?

Darkbyte chooses how he wants to distribute the program. The program, CE itself, is his creation. Any table or training made using that program DOES NOT HAVE ONE DAMN THING to do with him. It only involves the person who made it.

-fin

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Alsigard » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:31 am

I actually didn’t want to post anything more in this topic, but when you get called out like...
seronis wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:50 am
Actually that is an outright idiotic standpoint
For really “gifted” people I explain 1 more time. I said CT format in its form (table) was developed be DB and no other program uses it (as cheat table).
Alsigard wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:40 am
CT. file format was made by Darkbyte and is inseparable from CE itself therefore it is a part of his program. More so only one program in the world uses CT. format and states that’s its free. CE license agreement clearly says “You may not rent, lease or sell this program”.
He did not get permission to sell and profit from his format “CT”. In addition, what you are talking about actually violates economic Authors’ rights, which are intended to allow the author to profit financially from his creation, and the right to authorize the reproduction of the work in any form. (Berne Convention and WIPO Copyright Treaty). Moreover, before you say something like “it’s just format and text is all mine”. Simple analogy you go to chop wood and your “text” is steel head of the axe, but wooden handle is made by Darkbyte. You cannot chop wood without it. In addition, If CT and CE are inseparable, one does not work (properly or at all) without the other you could argue he sells part of the program itself.
Last edited by Alsigard on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:34 am

And in your analogy, you are saying you can't sell your chopped wood without the handle maker's permission. Edit* You edited your post but it doesn't change anything.
Last edited by SinStar87 on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by STN » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:37 am

Ermm...what i don't think you guys realize is Dark Byte is actually okay with it and posted the rules on how it should be done.

If you do know that and are just debating the right and wrongs of it then continue on :D .

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:39 am

:) I think that's understood, or atleast it's been repeated several times so should be. I'm arguing because I can, it's kinda fun to do it.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Alsigard » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:46 am

SinStar87 wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:34 am
And in your analogy, you are saying you can't sell your chopped wood without the handle maker's permission. Edit* You edited your post but it doesn't change anything.
You cannot use it to chop wood, because part of the axe is not yours. Can you chop without handle? I would love to see it IRL.
Maybe its crappy analogy but I do not have much time during coffee break, to think of better ones. :lol:
STN wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:37 am
Ermm...what i don't think you guys realize is Dark Byte is actually okay with it and posted the rules on how it should be done.

If you do know that and are just debating the right and wrongs of it then continue on :D .
I actually did not know that, could somebody post link to them. Thanks.

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