Promoting payed cheats.

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SinStar87
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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:17 pm

You going to have everyone who uses Photoshop to draw get permission from Adobe? Everyone who writes using Notepad get permission from Microsoft? Ideas like that are why we have this mess with Cheat Engine in the first place.
Dark Byte chooses to give away his work rather than lock it behind a paywall, that's great of him. Other people aren't as generous and choose not to.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Alsigard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:40 am

Adobe Photoshop CC is obviously not free and costs and costs 29.99$ a month. While CE is free it actually has license agreement.

Also on the “free spirit” note Asure Software creator of jpg format sued hundreds of companies for millions of dollars back in 2002.

CT. file format was made by Darkbyte and is inseparable from CE itself therefore it is a part of his program. More so only one program in the world uses CT. format and states that’s its free. CE license agreement clearly says “You may not rent, lease or sell this program”.

So to sum it up basically what you suggest if I add a few lines of my code to anything it automatically becomes mine and I can sell/resell it.
++METHOS wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:45 am
I think it would be cool to set it up so that half of the money goes to CE.
I agree on this with ++METHOS he should take permission from Darkbyte for commercial use and transfer a part of his revenue from selling tables or any other alternative that Darkbyte suggests.

Or just use trainers like everyone else does.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am

One, Dark Byte has an installer free version that has no license agreement when using. Two, CT isn't only used by Cheat Engine(and I'm almost positive that even if it was Dark Byte hasn't registered a copyright for it). Three, it's only a text file with another extension that Cheat Engine is designed to recognize and as far as I can tell it uses xml code. Dark Byte can register a copyright of the code structure and send CNDs and/or sue for damages if he likes. Until then it's free for anyone to use.

Four, what does photoshop charging for their product or Asure Software suing over ownership of JPEG have to do with requiring their permission for anything you make with it, as you suggested doing with Cheat Engine?

Five, you can agree with whatever you like, this thread is about opinions over blocking or allowing paid trainers on this site. I'm against blanket bans of paid content(which has been brought up was against Dark Byte's policy on his forums since he allowed them) but have no problem with the rules brought up earlier to control advertising. It'd be great if Dark Byte got a cut from it but that's not the world we live in. As I said, your suggestion is no different from what's caused this situation that has Dark Byte banning cheats from his forum.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Alsigard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:59 am

SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
One, Dark Byte has an installer free version that has no license agreement when using.
Source code Darkbyte provides does not have license agreement too. So If I type “Hello world” somewhere in there I can sell CE?
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
Two, CT isn't only used by Cheat Engine(and I'm almost positive that even if it was Dark Byte hasn't registered a copyright for it).
How do you know it’s not registered? You know Darkbyte personally or maybe know where he lives so you checked what’s registered in that country? Or you just assumed it?

I’m not a programmer but google tells me this.
What is a CT file?

File created by Cheat Engine, an open source program used to create "cheats," or modifications, to Windows-based games; contains game overrides and their address locations within the target program; allows users to edit game properties, such as numbers of lives, high scores, and units of health.
Provide please example of other programs using it?
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
Four, what does photoshop charging for their product or Asure Software suing over ownership ofJPEG have to do with requiring their permission for anything you make with it, as you suggested doing with Cheat Engine?
CE is open source while Adobe Photoshop CC is not. CE is free Adobe Photoshop CC is not. CE and CT is a work of one creator Adobe Photoshop CC and supported formats are not. Also most/all (not going to waste all day researching this) formats Adobe Photoshop CC provides are free to use in commercial purposes. To keep it simple if format goes under “Prior art” or any such thing you are free to use it. If you started selling your jpg artwork and obviously make money from it in 2002 you would get sued that’s all.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
Three, it's only a text file with another extension that Cheat Engine is designed to recognize and as far as I can tell it uses xml code.
Any code is made of text, format is what matters here.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
I'm against blanket bans of paid content(which has been brought up was against Dark Byte's policy on his forums since he allowed them) but have no problem with the rules brought up earlier to control advertising.
Those rules were made for selling trainers not tables. I have never saw someone trying so sell a table at all.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
It'd be great if Dark Byte got a cut from it but that's not the world we live in.
Why not? We can make this a reality at least on this forum.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
Dark Byte can register a copyright of the code structure and send CNDs and/or sue for damages if he likes. Until then it's free for anyone to use.
Now this is the real gold here. Basically stealing is fine until you are caught red-handed.
If one day Darkbyte stops CE development it would be because of people like you, who try to justify ripping him off in any way they can.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 am
As I said, your suggestion is no different from what's caused this situation that has Dark Byte banning cheats from his forum.
Care to explain how? I want to relay some money/support for continuation of development of CE. What is your objective then?

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am

Source code Darkbyte provides does not have license agreement too. So If I type “Hello world” somewhere in there I can sell CE?
Point 1, You don't even need to add hello world, there's plenty of sites selling CE right now. It's common enough that Dark Byte has it in the CE faq. It's not legal but if he doesn't fight it they get away with it.
How do you know it’s not registered? You know Darkbyte personally or maybe know where he lives so you checked what’s registered in that country? Or you just assumed it?
Point 2, as I said I'm almost positive.
Provide please example of other programs using it?
Point 3, http://file.org/extension/ct atleast 4 other uses for it.
The .ct file extension is also used for IRIS CT image format files, SciTex continuous Tone bitmap image (32bit CMYK) files, Contone printer files and CTwin project files.
Get better sources.
CE is open source while Adobe Photoshop CC is not. CE is free Adobe Photoshop CC is not. CE and CT is a work of one creator Adobe Photoshop CC and supported formats are not. Also most/all (not going to waste all day researching this) formats Adobe Photoshop CC provides are free to use in commercial purposes. To keep it simple if format goes under “Prior art” or any such thing you are free to use it. If you started selling your jpg artwork and obviously make money from it in 2002 you would get sued that’s all.
Point 4, again what's that have to do with anything? you feel that since someone made the program that anyone who uses said program needs the maker's permission for their work with it. It establishes precedent, if you think it should work that way for one then you have to expect it to work that way for all.
Any code is made of text, format is what matters here.
Point 5, and? He didn't invent a new language to make it so his claim would only be for the structure of the code.
Those rules were made for selling trainers not tables. I have never saw someone trying so sell a table at all.
Point 6, ok?
Why not? We can make this a reality at least on this forum.
Point 7, if they try to enforce that noone who creates paid content will post here and that's effectively a ban.
Now this is the real gold here. Basically stealing is fine until you are caught red-handed.
Point 8, congrats you now know how law works.
If one day Darkbyte stops CE development it would be because of people like you, who try to justify ripping him off in any way they can.
Point 9, I'm quite sure if he stops developing it it'll be because he's no longer interested in doing so. He's never charged for the program as far as I'm aware so I see it as a labor of love, I'd be genuinely amazed if he's getting anything noteworthy from donations.
Care to explain how? I want to relay some money/support for continuation of development of CE. What is your objective then?
Point 10, Dark Byte received a CnD because someone felt he contributed to violation of their IP Rights and protect their income. You want to bring a similar system into this forum for Paid Content to protect Dark Byte's IP Rights and his income.
My only problem would be if the admins pushed for one or the other.
I'm not big on over stepping authority or censorship. I think the admin and moderator's duty is to keep things civil, not control content.
Last edited by SinStar87 on Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by Alsigard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:05 am

You should try using quotes, it’s very hard to follow what you actually replying too.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am
Point 1, You don't even need to add hello world, there's plenty of sites selling CE right now. It's common enough that Dark Byte has it in the CE faq. It's not legal but if he doesn't fight it they get away with it.
That’s what he does adds some code to execute into CE in CT format. I figured you could recognize funny analogy.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am
The .ct file extension is also used for IRIS CT image format files, SciTex continuous Tone bitmap image (32bit CMYK) files, Contone printer files and CTwin project files.
Don’t know what this have to do with cheat tables. But my point stand valid if CT format was developed by Darkbyte for CE. Even if they and that image format have same name doesn’t mean they do exactly same thing or are identical to each other in any way.
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am
Point 4, again what's that have to do with anything? you feel that since someone made the program that anyone who uses said program needs the maker's permission for their work with it.
Again pretty simple, if I make a format I decide what can and can’t be done with it. If I say it can’t be sold then you can’t sell it.

So to sum it all up this guy should make hundreds of dollars by selling Darkbytes work. While Darkbyte
SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am
I'd be genuinely amazed if he's getting anything noteworthy from donations.
Seems legit.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:23 am

Alsigard wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:05 am
Again pretty simple, if I make a format I decide what can and can’t be done with it. If I say it can’t be sold then you can’t sell it.
Well then, by that logic, you have nothing to argue with because, as others said, Dark Byte didn't say cheats can't be sold and actively allowed paid content to be posted on his forum. That's a big rubber OK stamp on it and you are actively arguing against his will, so much for your "doing this for Dark Byte" position.
So to sum it all up this guy should make hundreds of dollars by selling his work. While Darkbyte

SinStar87 wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am
I'd be genuinely amazed if he's getting anything noteworthy from donations.

Seems legit.
Yep, that's what Dark Byte has chosen to do, he can easily put Cheat Engine behind a pay wall and get money but he doesn't, it would seem that it's more important to him that his work is freely available.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by ColonelRVH » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:39 am

I had to read the License Agreement again yesterday. But I chose not to say anything about that claim.

However I feel bad for letting SinStar87 involves with this nonsense anymore that i have to remind you.

Read it again by yourself. This is the copy of the original one.

CE License Agreement wrote:13) You may not rent, lease or sell this program.
You are justifying something that isn't there.

If there's any statement regarding CT files type or Products created from CE saying the same thing, I'm all ears.

On another note, CT files are in XML, do you know what that means?

Other than that, stop claiming something that isn't yours.

Regards,

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SunBeam » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 am

Honestly, I don't see what about's the big fuzz here:

a. You're using a tool which is free of charge (I wouldn't mind paying for Cheat Engine either, as I freakin' love the tool) to modify executable game memory. Whatever you do beyond that, be it with CE or another tool (a debugger; keep in mind x64dbg and OllyDbg allow scripting, which is pretty much similar to CE's auto-assembler, yet more versatile) is entirely your work, your approach, your whatever. That being said, extrapolating, you might as well "sell" the method a user can modify game's memory and write your said option through other means, not CE. That would get CE out of discussion and still keep the "is a certain user allowed to sell cheats/hooks/game reversed options on this forum?" question on the table.

b. Here's a quick example of a situation like the one being discussed here: I got Ghost Recon: Wildlands. I choose to post a table that only features God Mode. I'm stating that for other options, you can donate 1$ to my PayPal. Would you be pissed I'm asking a modicum sum for my spent hours figuring out options maybe other trainers/tables haven't? And even if they were similar, would you still donate? Then you'd get the table, use it for your own good. But here's the catch: you can always distribute this table. Others will use it. Others will post it (even if you go by the "don't give it to anyone" rule, which most of the times fails). And eventually gets posted publicly. Well.. I ask.. isn't this the behavior 0-day applies: someone buys the game or software, others crack it and post it for free? :P All you win in the end is 1$ :) You're not going to get rich by the time the table gets posted somewhere :P And the reason I'm saying "table" is the fact that this discussion is about CE tables. Imagine other means of modifying game memory, without CE. Would you still drag those software into discussing whether or not it is allowed to use them to sell your work? (i.e.: the game modifications).

c. Concurring with Dark Byte's statements, the rules by which paid tables would be allowed. I have nothing against this kind of promotion. Only thing I'd ask for in return is not to bend the upcoming-wanted-to-be-set rules.

BR,
Sun

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by corroder » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:02 am

My though, it's simple.
Paying vs Donating.
Paying = Compensate for something with a that has been determined price
Donating = Provide compensation to something as a reward or a thank with voluntarily
Let choose a wise way

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by predprey » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:45 am

STN wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:59 pm
I can tell you if it was any other game that was popular, either Recifense or Cielos or Shinkansen or any of the other popular table makers would have posted their own contribution and people would have skipped right past ColonelRVH post.
This. No one expects to earn a living from selling tables, maybe just a cup of coffee to last them through making the table :lol: If they do, they probably need to check in with their psychiatrist. The community ain't gonna go to shit from one or two of these cases, just as how the modding community did not succumb to that paid Skyrim mods hooha. Trust that there are enough table makers who do it for the fun and joy of it, if not you're always welcome to join the ranks of it, can't too much of them :lol:

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by predprey » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:51 am

++METHOS wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:45 am
I am not a gamer, so I do not have any need for this stuff, and even if I did, I can just create my own.
How does a non-gamer end up in CEF? Looking for a table for microsoft office or internet explorer?

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by STN » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:01 pm

This is not correct
Alsigard wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:12 pm
First MAF is actually free website you can donate if you want but it’s optional, there is no “Pay wall aka premium cheats”. Just register and download all you want.
In my opinion if somebody wants to sell cheats and the guy in question is closer to Caliber then to Omoe (Antifun) for charging money to use them. Should make their own website and provide his cheats to his donators/patrons/kick starters etc.
I loathe the guy, my hatred isn't a secret and for a good reason - http://fileforums.com/showthread.php?p=423350 | http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?t=568175 +more that aren't relevant to this discussion. So i don't like when he is being hailed as some hero for people to follow. The free is an illusion, you have to pay if you wish to use the chat feature, some of his site sections are locked to paid members, he ignores requests and updates if you aren't a paid member. Sure, he hasn't put a price on his cheats yet but everything else is a ploy to squeeze money out of his visitors.

You claim "now we face a very subtle threat from within which in time will either kill this community or transform it into something you won’t recognize." that's a big claim that has no basis and is unfair. But i ask, if i took your advice and followed MAF's formula...introduced some features exclusive to donators (aka paid members) and ignored non paying members, you would be very pissed, no ?. Yet he is a hero when he's doing the very thing you made this thread against while FRF has not and will never have such crap. So why make such claims that are damaging to this community and dissuade people that don't know this place better.

Paid cheats are the decision of the cheat makers themselves and has nothing to do with FRF. Please don't claim it as such or that there is a hidden agenda being pursued by us, it's preposterous. I wish to follow Dark Byte's path in this matter and what he would've done if such situation arose at CEF if tables were still being posted, after all this community is based on a tool he created.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by ++METHOS » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:57 pm

SinStar87 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am
I think the admin and moderator's duty is to keep things civil, not control content.
-We have to take certain measures to regulate what content gets published, as per the site owner, to remove any potentially infringing content and to keep things topically relevant etc..


predprey wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:51 am
++METHOS wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:45 am
I am not a gamer, so I do not have any need for this stuff, and even if I did, I can just create my own.
How does a non-gamer end up in CEF? Looking for a table for microsoft office or internet explorer?
-I started out in the RE scene. I like puzzles. I enjoy playing older games on rare occasions, and I may play the occasional AAA, if it piques my interest. But I mostly lost interest in playing video games a long time ago. :D

With CE, I can take an old classic, or even a modern title, and reinvent it...allowing players to do things that they were never supposed to be able to do. It can be like playing a totally new game...but a funner version.

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Re: Promoting payed cheats.

Post by SinStar87 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:16 pm

I'm not out for anarchy, clear and reasonable rules for posting is fine.

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